Time only is measured unto men
Disclaimer and warning: This is a series of questions about time, but they could all be based on incorrect assumptions. You may also find the ideas convoluted, tedious, obscure or contradictory. I wouldn’t blame you for passing this post up as a waste of time. (But I would read it.)
“Time only is measured unto men.” (Alma 40:8)
a) Does this mean time is in the measuring? If one exercises a measuring (mental or conscious) act, this is time?
b) Does this mean a measurement of time was provided for man in this realm? (See the creation of time, along with everything else, in creation accounts: He called it the first day, etc. Note they use the term, “day;” compare to Alma's use of “day”--all is as one day with God.)
c) Does the use of the word, “unto” mean “directed towards or for the use of” man by God?
d) Does this mean that man naturally experiences or measures time?
e) Does this mean that time exists with the Lord, but is not measured by Him, being eternal or endless in either quantity or quality (whatever that would mean)? (See 1 Cor.13:8,10; for example “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”)
f) Does this mean that the “when” of time is a mystery only the Lord knows, and man tries to get at it by a limited act of measuring?
g) Does this act of measuring parallel that of counting, or numbering (Moses 1:35; “But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.” Note the use of “unto” in the phrase, “numbered unto,” similar to Alma's use of the phrase, “measured unto.” [Compare also with the idea of counting with Cantor's idea in mathematics of a countable infinite set, versus an uncountable infinite set.] The linguistic expressions, counting, measuring, have implications as we use them, which may reflect our limited human capacities.)
h) Does this refer to the a fundamental distinction of how time relates to the Lord and how it relates to man? Is man's limitation in being captive of time (in a particular manner) a manifestation of his measuring it, the only thing he can seem to do with it?
i) In the atonement, the spiritual effects didn't need to wait for Christ to come and actually perform His role--Adam was baptized and born of the Spirit during his lifetime (Moses 6:64-65). However, the physical effects of resurrection of the body had to wait for Christ's resurrection. Does time, then, relate differently to spiritual versus physical aspects of salvation? (Of course spirit is also physical, but in a refined way.) Would this imply that a property of the spirit world is that there is no time (at least in any sense we know it here)?
j) Finally, here is an idea that contradicts the idea just given in the preceding section (i): Perhaps time universally runs throughout the spirit world and everywhere except where it is transcended by faith. Consider: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3) "It was by faith that the worlds were framed. God spake, chaos heard, and worlds came into order by reason of the faith there was in HIM." (Lectures on Faith 1:22.) How could God exercise faith to create the world, which requires that there is something one does not know or see, if He knows and sees everything, and knows the end from the beginning? Perhaps we should turn the idea around. Instead of asking how God could have faith if He knows and sees all, we could say: God knows and sees all as a result of first having faith. Perhaps faith is what is fundamental, the cause, related to His very nature. God's faith enables Him to know all things, and to know the end from the beginning. Thus, because of His faith, He can transcend time in some way (as well as space). By definition, faith brings about the overcoming of the inability to see. The definition of faith given for man's use is but the tip of the iceberg of knowing the implications of faith. Only a being with sufficient faith can transcend time and space. All others are subject to it and limited by it, and they experience it as the fabric of reality.
I'm afraid that this topic far surpasses my knowledge and/or capacities, but I will say that it's something I've pondered about many times. I've always assumed that the reason I can't comprehend existing (before and after this life) forever in some form is because the human mind isn't capable of thinking in terms other than those limited by time. The Lord, who is so superior (perfect) in every way, therefore, doesn't have this limitation (as is stated in question "e").
ReplyDeleteI find the links between faith and time especially fascinating. And who or what does God have faith in? Himself? Truth? Good?
Wow. Cool ideas about faith. I will have to think about those.
ReplyDeleteI have also wondered about time in the spirit world. Like people always say "that person has been waiting for years and years for their temple work to be done!" and I wonder... have they really? Are they just sitting there waiting on a rock? Or do they experience 'time' differently than we do? Hmmm....
:) On a rock? They HAVE rocks in the spirit world? Dang. I was hoping it was all rolling hills and green grass that automatically mowed itself...
ReplyDeleteWhen I think about time and eternity, it frightens me. I think about living forever, and the thought makes me so scared and tired at the same time, but then I think about the concept of *not* existing and that's even wierder. I think these things are concepts that a mortal mind with its fleshy limitations simply cannot get around just yet (or at least I tell myself this, because it's comforting.)
I guess if you consider Genesis, God does measure time, and it seems to be pretty important to Him (he has us all rest the seventh day because of the symbolism of the creation... even if the "Days" he counted are different from the days we experience in mortality, that's still counting... 7 of something.)
But I think that we also put a whole heckuva lot of stock in time here. Maybe to Heavenly Father it's not quite as important, at least, not in the same way? Maybe when you have all eternity to grow and progress and get projects done, time is only a method of measuring progression, whereas here, it's almost how we account any accomplishment at all? (consider school, with its semesters, and timed projects, and timed finals, and even time tests in elementary school where accomplishment is measured by how many you get done "right" in something like a minute?)
Good post, and I agree with Camilla about the human mind... that's putting it much better than I was doing, with my own limited mind... I think Camillas must be a little less limited than mine when it comes to this concept, which scares the heck out of me :)
As usual, some insightful comments that cause me to think as well. I think that the limits on our minds here are necessary for our probationary state--for our development here as well as for testing here.
ReplyDeleteI notice that in the scriptures the Lord tells us many things that lift our contemplation to things of eternity and to things of all types that we cannot comprehend. Of course, He also gives us many things that we must comprehend, for example, that we must repent and keep the commandments, etc. For me, it is motivating to sift through everything I see, trying to separate temporal things from eternal things, temporary things from permanant things. So the issue of time is ever present.
On a side note, here is a thought about trying to make a logical choice between believeing in life after death versus ceasing to exist after death, based on the way we decide things in this world, through observation and logic:
If you live forever, you will never make the observation that you have done so until you reach the point of having lived infinitely long, which point you can never reach. If you cease to exist, you will not know you do, not knowing anything at that point. Those are the only two options--to exist or not to exist. Therefore, regarding the issue of living forever, you cannot observe it is true and you cannot observe it is false. And yet, this is one of the important issues.
In order for me to be able to visualize time as infinite, I would have to imagine it a photo that cannot be altered, maybe in the form of a 3 dimensinal sphere. God would maybe be the viewer of this sphere and us one of his viewing instruments in the form of data processing energy. Our path through the image, and our processing capabilities through each instance would give us feedback reports in the form of "time". This time check could be incorporated into one of the failsafes of our unit of energy, guiding on this grid; preventing us from becoming cluttered, or absorbing too many variables to be of value to a system.(or possibly disrupt the path of other signals?) Other forms of nature (i.e. animals) may have a different perception of time due to their capitity, amount of points along their path, etc. God could therefore introduce any expirement into the picture (i.e. creating the world in a day) by using a tool specialized for faster manipulation of any number of variables in the form of an energy source with a higher capacity or the ability to overlap and compress points.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I got lost in my head trying to explore that, and as I just re-read what I wrote, I'm not exactly sure where I was going with it.
(Thanks Dad for once again putting my thoughts into a circle....although I do miss that)
The photo cannot be altered. We, as God's viewing instruments, take a path through the image. Would our path through the image have a beginning and an end? (Would that require time to already exist on a higher plane for it to be possible?) Or maybe the path would exist all at once, with neither of its ends being the beginning or end.
ReplyDeleteYour mentioning our being prevented from absorbing too many variables to be of value, as a failsafe (which failsafe utilizes time), is very interesting. God, then, is able to manipulate more variables.
Also, your relation between energy level and time sounds like relativity.
(Do I sound like I know what I'm talking about?)
I, too, miss talking the way we did. Bryce and I sometimes can have some interesting conversations maybe a bit like that.